My Transition from UX Design to Product Management – Interview with Pati Walencik
In Episode 7, we sat down with Pati Walencik, a Product Manager at Zendesk, to discuss her journey from UX Design to Product Management.
Some Product Designers come to a point where they’d like to have more ownership. Be responsible for the features from end to end. Be accountable for business metrics. But it’s not possible in most companies.
What to do when you hit a glass-ceiling? What if you feel a lack of empowerment? How does the transition from design to product management look like? And how can you enhance the communication and collaboration with a Product Manager in your team starting today?
You will find answers to all of these and many more questions in our conversation with Pati Walencik, a Product Manager at Zendesk.
Arkadiusz Radek: Your first job was as a host for a radio show that focused on new tech. How did this role influence your later career in the User Experience industry?
Pati Walencik: It wasn’t a real job but rather a student initiative. When I was a freshman at the university studying Economics, I found out about this student radio, and I was already in love with the idea of working at one. So, I applied and managed to get in. I presented a show called Starter, discussing new technologies and tech events like CES. Later, I ran an original show called All Rights Reserved. The idea was to present a tech firm, play a song from one of their TV or radio ads, and talk a little bit about the band who sang this song. Usually, these were really niche and unknown bands.
Where’s the whole UX in this story?
Oh, that’s still some time before the UX journey started! Although I didn't know much about UX at the time, I took a usability testing class in college where we conducted website audits. This was my first exposure to UX, although I didn't realize it at the time. Later on, during my third year of college, I applied for an internship program and proposed a mobile marketing campaign. Thanks to this proposal, I was able to land an internship at Microsoft, where I was working as a Junior Project Manager for a year.
Some would say you went a full circle from a PJM through a UX Designer, ending up as a PM today.
When I joined Microsoft, I was a part of the DX (Development Experience) Team, and it was mostly composed of people known as Evangelists. These Evangelists were responsible for educating customers on new Microsoft products, such as Azure, Office 365, and mobile apps.
Microsoft had several community projects – Geek Club was one of them, and my job was to take care of its website. At that time, Microsoft had its own app store, and my most important task was to evangelize UI and Graphic Designers about the Windows Phone platform and encourage them to design apps for it. I’ve interviewed several talented designers and published the interviews on Geek Club. This led me to discover Reaktor, a startup house in Warsaw. I was invited to a tech event, which introduced me to the world of startups.
After some time, I attended a startup weekend event, where, together with a small team, we designed a mobile app, and my task was to test out the prototype with potential users. So, I went to a shopping mall as we were working on a coupon app, and I ran from person to person with a prototype installed on a Lumia smartphone. Basically, I was doing User Research without knowing this term.
I had a light-bulb moment after that event. I didn’t know much about making mobile apps and wanted to learn from the best, so I conducted a small research and discovered Monika Mikowska (CEO of MobeeDick). I reached out to her, met for a coffee, and… she offered me a job. A few weeks later, I joined MobeeDick.
What did you do at MobeeDick?
I'd call it my real beginnings in UX, as I was mostly responsible for user research. I had a healthy research and data analysis experience from my studies, so asking the right questions and constructing user surveys was something that came naturally. But I wasn’t doing only that. Because of my experience with Microsoft, I also talked to customers and evangelized our products and services. At some point, I realized that UX is my thing, and I want to grow as a UX practitioner.
I remember your great talk at Design Ways in 2019 about Orange Flex. You worked at Orange as a UX Design Lead then, but I know you were doing more than that during your four-year tenure there. You also spent some time as a Product Owner. What motivated you to make a radical shift to Product Management over three years ago?
Lack of empowerment. In some sense, I have hit the glass ceiling. At work, I really want to take ownership. I love it when I can steer the way where the project is going. Don’t get me wrong, I had a lot of authority, and my voice as a Design Leader was heard by the entire organization. Of course, I had to spend a lot of time evangelizing UX by talking to stakeholders and managers from other departments. I even made video shots about UX Design together with the Employer Branding Team. I spent numerous hours speaking to and teaching people about UX. What pushed me forward was a new product we had been creating in Orange – Orange Flex. I had the opportunity to join the dedicated team Orange Flex, and then everything started to change in my mind. I cooperated more with business, marketing, and product owners and touched the product job from scratch. Bit by bit, I realized that I wanted to move towards product management. Of course, I had a lot to catch up on. I remember one significant piece of feedback I received from the Head of Digital about how crucial it was to understand business. We couldn’t work together well without this, so I had to educate myself about business metrics and terms. I was lucky to have many open-minded and talented people around me from whom I could learn.
Have you taken any courses to turn it into a reality?
At the time when Orange Flex was up and running, I went to my manager and told them about my idea of transitioning to Product Management. So, they made me a Product Owner of the Flex website. I did a product ownership certification and started doing a Reforge course. My manager was really supportive of finding a budget for all these initiatives. I also had the privilege of becoming a mentee of one of our directors, who helped me define my future path. A lot of what I learned there I implemented at work, like A/B testing. I really enjoyed this time but felt hungry for more and knew that being a Product Owner (Scrum PO) is not the same as being in Product Management. I badly wanted to be a real PM, especially at an American company that builds SaaS products. I also had a “hidden agenda” of improving my English skills, and I knew I had to take a leap of faith to see progress.
You had your own American dream.
Now, it’s when Zendesk comes in. They reached out with an offer to join them as a Lead Product Designer. I turned it down, saying that I was in the process of transitioning to product management and would love to chat again if they had an open PM role. Luckily, they did have one, and I managed to get that job.
But before it happened, and I was still at Orange, I had a really helpful mentor. He pointed out all the skills I needed to improve if I even thought about becoming a PM. And one of these was my English. As I’m very ambitious, I decided to take some serious steps about it. The main issue was a speaking barrier I overcame while working with an English coach and psychologist. Understanding the source of frustration was a game changer in this journey. The Gallup test and the Gallup coach helped me discover that communication is my strength. By default, I assumed that I should have had the same talent in English and should have spoken like a native, which, of course, was an absolutely incorrect assumption.
Do you think it is how it’s supposed to be?
Only by looking back you are able to connect the dots. I believe that thanks to the hard work I’ve put in all these years, I achieved my goals. But honestly, the first three or four months at Zendesk were extremely stressful.
In terms of communication?
In terms of everything. Maybe besides the very first month, which was the time of my onboarding, which I have to admit, was highly mature and professional – I was impressed. I did a lot of internal courses, some were very stimulating, like Radical Candor. But after this initial month, the first tasks started to pop up. I wasn’t as technical as most of the PMs at Zendesk, and I had a lot to catch up on. An American PM usually originates from an engineer. I saw it at Zendesk. Many of the PMs are former engineers. One of my first assignments was an email integration, a complete back-end thing. I didn’t know anything about webhooks, DB architecture, or SQL.
Sounds like a terrible start! But you have already spent two years at Zendesk. What made you stay?
I focused on what I could control, which was making up for my shortcomings. I had a fantastic buddy who helped me understand the internal technical aspects of my work. I found a SQL course, and I continually worked on improving my English skills. Step by step, I built up my knowledge and confidence.
What does your job as a PM at Zendesk look like? Do you still need to use your previous UX Design or Research skills sometimes?
My current project involves Machine Learning. I don’t touch Figma anymore, thanks to the team of seasoned in-house product designers. Cooperation between me and designers is pretty natural – I’m responsible for gathering requirements and drafting a vision for the product.
More writing and less drawing.
That’s true, but on the other hand, I prefer not to come to my team with a finished PRD (Product Requirements Document). I like to involve my team in the project from its beginnings, we have an established cooperation culture at Zendesk.
What does your typical day as a PM at Zendesk look like?
Luckily, I don’t have many meetings. People in our organization respect the focus time of others. I check my email and Slack and plan my whole day in the morning. I can split my day into focus time - I jump into my operational job tasks, like checking/categorizing customer feedback, defining requirements, reviewing mockups, catching up on comments related to projects, etc., and classic sync calls with teammates, specialists, or participating in team ceremonies. A large part of my daily work is based on asynchronous work, and by joining Zendesk, I also had to learn to work in this way.
What do you believe is the most crucial factor when it comes to managing a product team?
The first thing I do in a newly formed team is the alignment. I try my best to hear every member's voice and set up the way we communicate that works for all. I’m a good facilitator, not a dictator. For me, the most important aspect of managing a product team is setting up goals and watching how everybody performs smoothly. I love it when everything clicks.
Which skill that you acquired as a UX practitioner is the most useful for you in your PM days?
Facilitation. Planning and facilitating workshops. I also have a certain skill of gathering everyone around a shared goal – I even received an award for this during my time at Orange. I was recognized for enabling collaboration between UX, Marketing, and the IT Teams.
Today, you have two perspectives: a UX practitioner and a PM. What advice would you give to UX designers and researchers to help them work better with their PMs?
I believe that honesty and clear communication, as well as setting up some sort of a contract of collaboration, are the key. Some designers prefer to communicate via comments in their Figma files, and some PMs would prefer to jump on a quick call every time they have something to discuss. If you don’t talk it through early, there will be issues later in the process. Sit down and talk about your past experience, what worked for you, and what can be potentially frustrating. Don’t forget to talk about the expectations too. Especially when you give each other feedback. There’s a really cool feedback method called FUKO, where its last step is talking about expectations.
You didn’t have enough ownership during your time at Orange, and today, as a PM, you have much more of it. Product Designers at AirBnb are taking a lot of ownership, acting almost as PMs, but that’s an exception. Do you think there’s a clear line between taking ownership as a Product Designer and a Product Manager? What happens when a designer wants too much of it?
I was in this exact position at Orange. I knew that I wasn’t ultimately responsible for the business metrics and didn’t have the last word. I wasn’t accountable but rather consulted. At that moment, I realized I needed to transition to product management to take on full ownership. Putting designs together in Figma became boring for me very quickly. In fact, that was the most boring part of the whole process and another factor giving me the feeling of lack of accountability.
Are you happy with the transition?
People ask me if I miss my old role, and the answer is absolutely not. Now, when I’m on the other side doing design reviews, I’m so glad that I’m not the one who has to move the components around in Figma (laughter).
Besides your PM career, you also teach UX Design at a university. We were both mentors in the same mentorship program a couple of years ago. Do you enjoy sharing knowledge?
I love it, it gives me a lot of satisfaction. Looking back and connecting the dots, I was writing articles first in high school, later as a co-founder of Tipi UX, hosting many UX meetups, and during the pandemic, I launched a YouTube channel, where I posted a few interviews with UX people working in the automotive industry.
Why automotive?
My grandfather was a driving teacher, and I spent a healthy amount of time in a car while I was a kid. I’m really into this field, and if I ever had an opportunity to work as a PM at Mercedes-Benz, BMW, or VAG, I wouldn’t hesitate to take it!
I’m afraid you would have to move to Germany or the US.
Some time ago, I went to Berlin for a UX in Automotive conference. It was an outstanding event. I met many UX folks and product people from around the world, but I discovered that to work in this industry, I’d need to overcome another language barrier – German.
The final question: What advice do you have for UX designers transitioning into product management?
If I said this path is not painful, I’d lie, but the reward is worth it. Courses like Reforge are a great help, but not from the start. You really have to spend a healthy amount of time learning the basics of product management, its terms and definitions. Observe other PMs, watch how they work, and what their process looks like. After some time, you’ll be ready to ask the right questions, and that’s the moment to maybe look for a mentor for a few 1:1 sessions. I was lucky enough to have these wonderful mentors around me when I was working at Orange. It’s much better to be prepared before hitting the job market with a banner saying, “Hey, I want to be a PM now but don't have a clue.”
Patrycja Walencik
Product Manager at Zendesk (Machine Learning Department)
Professionally, she focuses on solving problems and delivering value to Zendesk's customers - one of the world's most popular customer service software. Previously, she was related to the telco market and the most innovative product around - Orange Flex. Her years of experience designing digital products translate into cooperation with companies and NGOs as a consultant and mentor. She describes herself as a seeker; in her free time, she dives into finding new experiences, especially around wine tasting and the automotive areas, which she shares on her Instagram.
Instagram: @patrycja_walencik
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/patrycjawalencik/
Tool of the week
UX Checklist
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